Everybody and their mother will always tell you that a good suspension is probably the best mod you can make to your track bike, and I get that. But what makes an Ohlins or Penske or what have you so much better than a stock suspension, exactly? At what point would a rider begin to notice a difference? I'm fairly positive that my low to mid pack pace(at best) is not being held up by crappy suspension, and that my money would be better spent on track days and tires. As I do more track days, and as i progress as a rider, getting my corner speed up there, braking later, and getting on the gas sooner, when am i going to notice to where i think to myself, "whoa, these weak ass shocks are not doing what i want them to do" and what exactly is it that i want them to do BETTER than my (supposedly) junk ass stock stuff?
Your point about your stock suspension will be true up to a point. What and when that point is will be hard to define. When you ride with crap suspension you won't know if it's you the track/road or suspension. I understand dishing out loads of cash can hurt. So first make sure your stock suspension is properly setup. They can tell you if your maxed on preload like me. And really needed new springs. If your mid setting then sure ride the bike until your pushing novice group. In the mean time have the cash handy and look for a nice shock selling for half new. Most riders can live with a mid level shock, so the 800 to 1000 shock sells for 400 to 500. Had my forks done for $525, with new springs, valves and seals.
Stock suspension today is pretty good. The key is developing a relationship with a tuner you trust and can communicate with. Together, you two will get a stock bike set up good enough to take you into the ranks of expert racing. If you have disposable income, aftermarket suspension is nice, it's not a magic bullet but when properly tuned, you will notice a difference. Also, don't think that just because you drop $3k on suspension, you will go faster, I have seen many, myself included, that have gone slower with the blingy stuff. Having someone help you get your setup dialed in for you is key.
Another way to look at it is that if the bike is setup properly AND you are using quality suspension components, it will increase not only your confidence in the bike, but allow your learning curve to continue upward.
i have always wondered this to ... ponder this im 215 lbs and ride a stock 2007 r1 that makes about 150hp, stock suspension, stock engine, has a slip on and power commander, thats it .. suspension is of course set for my weight and riding style - at NCM i ran a 1:59 the last time i was there there was another rider there that day on a 2015 r1m that makes around 190hp, rider weighs 185 if i had to guess, this bike has EVERYTHING, ohlins forks ohlins shock ohlins dampener, full titanium/carbon exhaust, qs, fuel mapping stuff, brembo calipers with the works, magnesium wheels, lightweight race fairings, quick turn throttle, everything u can do to a bike this one has and then some, his best lap time was also 1:59 with that said if i was on that bike how much would i be able to drop my lap times? its things like that that really make me question how much better the ohlins stuff is over stock a friend of mine ran 2:02 at ncm last year on a stock gsxr600, built it to suspersport specs over the winter with full ohlins everything and the works, set up by Tman, fastest he could go was 2:04-2:05 just sayin
I finally had the front forks rebuilt with new springs etc and it was the single best thing I've ever had done to the bike. Never realized how much the thing was a pogo stick where I had to wait for it to settle before getting on the gas. Now it's planted going into corners.
A lot of good stuff has been said already but what the heck, I'll toss in a little bit too. It's really easy to fall into the trap that you need an aftermarket suspension and carbon fiber wheels and professionally painted bodywork...and my personal favorite...a tire tree, just to be a track day rider. There is no shortage of guys who build completely tricked out bikes, and then were forced to get out of the sport because they went broke or couldn't afford to fix them when they crash. Most modern suspensions are very good, and a little work from a good suspension guy can make them great. Keep it in mind if you plan on being in this sport for the long haul.
You aren't factoring in experience and flat out balls. Its very possible the R1M rider didn't want to crash his expensive bike so he wasn't pushing it OR it was new to him and he was getting used to it. Same goes for your friend with the new Ohlins suspension. Just because you spend $$$ on suspension doesn't mean you will instantly be fast, it takes some time (some less than others). In my experience I have found that aftermarket suspension works better and better the harder it is pushed and the better it is set up. OEM suspension is very good nowadays but it too has its limits.
There are many different angles you have to look at this particular issue. How much better high end will be over stock?...... well.... What is your stock setup? The newer Yami R6 comes with awesome suspension stock. Yea, the Ohlins is better, but not in any amount a member of Novice, or most Intermediate will notice........Or is your set up the worn out suspension on your 1982 Honda Ascot? If you go to my old heap, not that the stock suspension on my 04 GSXR sucked, it didn't. That suspension got me to the point were I was dragging elbow in the appropriate turns. As awesome as that was, I could not feel the back end worth a damn (didn't matter at the time. I started life in the dirt, so I did not think it really mattered), and continued pushing until I high-sided. The suspension was not desperate for a rebuild at the time, but was soon due. Now that the bike has been squared away with Ohlins all around, I can feel everything that is going on with both ends of the bike, including the back tire beginning to spin up. This has brought my confidence right back, and I am now getting back to working on getting smoother, and therefor faster. I did not buy all new Ohlins. I was patient and sourced used but freshly rebuilt components for a fraction of the cost of new.
"I was patient and sourced used but freshly rebuilt components for a fraction of the cost of new." Yep,,, couldn't agree more.
I have an 06 zx6r that I'm fairly positive has only had the fork oil changed in it by me last year. I ran 1:36-1:38 at grattan counterclockwise, and if you're not familiar with the track, I was passing some, and getting passed some. I'm not good enough to out brake anybody safely, or really pass off the line, when I pass people it's the safest way I can, on the straights, getting a better drove than them. At BEST I'd give myself a mid pack intermediate rating. I rarely feel my tires "push" or "wiggle" and in no way shape or form do I feel the need or want to drag an elbow. With that being said, I never considered feedback from a bike to be a determining factor in getting better/going faster. My goal on track riding isn't necessarily to go faster so much as it is to get better. I don't want to push the limits, so much as find them with experience. Can you go into more detail about feeling the back end and stuff? Is that what the good suspension is for? Also I set the sag for my bike myself, and I'm barely over the limits of my Springs. Max preload and I'm at inthink 36mm and 38mm sag, without looking at the paper I wrote it down on. Close enough that I called it close enugh for my skills. You just do some googling about upgraded suspension and you get posts like "stock sucks get ohlins" and "a good suspension is key" without really any in depth WHY and what kind of rider will actually notice it, or if for most if it's a placebo effect, boosting the confidence, therefore lowering lap times.
I had this stupid freaking bike for two years and I swear it's a unicorn, or nobody sells stuff for it used. Like, it's gotten to the point that even though I really really love the way the bike rides and acts, I've considered selling it and just buying an r6 because 40% of the paddock is r6 and the sheer parts availability for them is ungodly.
Another, and I think the best spent money, would be in a race/rider school or even private lessons. A $3k+ suspension isn't worth its weight in aluminum if you don't know how to properly utilize it. So, don't just think trackdays/tires is the only other way to spend to get faster. STT has a fantastic staff of rider coaches and yeah, you might see an improvement in your times but until you get good one on one feedback as you progress throughout the day/weekend or find some other way to develop proper techniques (dirt sliding school) you won't even get the full capabilities of your stock set-up. Man, I miss the JDSA...
For comparison, clockwise at Grattan, I was turning low 1:27s on the stock suspension. If this were an "apples to apples" comparison, I would say you are better off getting more instruction and saddle time than having to worry about buying new suspension. I'm not trying to sound like an ass with that last comment either. Believe me, plenty of my skills need honing too! Just make sure your current suspension components are not in need of service, and are properly set up. Those two things can make a world of difference. With the new components I feel much less movement in the front end of the bike, and instead of a surprise trip skyward, I can feel the back tire begin to spin up allowing me to use my "traction control" Overall the bike moves around much less, and just feels more attached to the tarmac. I'm sure that at the limit the high dollar parts will definitely be better, but I am far from that level of riding.
I'm a new rider on these sport bike things but i've been riding and racing dirtbikes since i could walk. I am still getting used to this whole sport bike thing. With that said suspension makes a huge difference in my book...I ride a 2015 r1 and my big issue with the stock stuff was the valving was just not very good for how i ride (to be fair this style bike isnt very good for how i ride but the nobby tires are really hard to get on an r1...haha). I've worked with some guys on here and some other people and getting my suspension dialed in and setup has made a stupid huge difference. IT went from feeling like i had to force the bike to lean and get to 35-40 degree lean angles to being able to comfortably get to 50 or so degrees and feel like i'm back down to 75-85% of my max and to have a bike that actually wants to be there. This doesnt exactly relate well in my book since its 100% dirt bike but i used to have a 3 mile section of whoops i'd ride to base line suspension on my race bike and on my stock KTM 300xc i was able to push as hard as i could and manage the top of 3rd bottom of 4th...After Travis at TBT suspensions worked his magic i was able to cruise through them in 5th or if i pushed i could be almost wide open (110mph or so) through the same section. Suspension in my book is the single best upgrade you can do to a bike.
Trust me, you don't sound like an ass saying that. Everybody always talks about how a good suspension is key and how stock stuff is terrible, but that may be the case for A level riders and racers, but for someone who still has a rather significant amount to learn, I really can't imagine that my suspension would be holding me back by any amount. If I'm not at the point where I'm pushing my tires, and testing the limits, or really probably anywhere near that point, I can't justify spending the amount of money it takes to get good suspension. My tire wear indicates that my settings on my stock stuff are pretty good, so I'll just leave it at that, and invest in seat time. Hopefully someone in my shoes can Google these questions and find this post, and learn as much as I have. Thanks a lot for the info!
I Would have loved to hit up grattan this Friday for the pro school but schedules conflict. For now I'll just nag instructors for help like I usually do.
Didn't you wreck the last time at NCM? not that it matters but to answer your question.... A stock suspension sprung for your weight can achieve awesome results at the track. The aftermarket suspensions do preform much better and help you get the last ten percent out of your bike. What I really like about the aftermarket suspensions is they provide much better feel and I have a much better Idea of where the limit is at. I think feel and knowing what's going on with the bike is much better than the increased performance. the performance stuff didn't drop my lap times much but I have a much better idea of what is going on with the bike and know where I need to improve. Hope that helps.