Overall experience at Barber on 10-15-17

Discussion in 'STT Southern' started by RyanG, Oct 16, 2017.

  1. RyanG

    RyanG n00b

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    Just my general overview of the bay at Barber.

    First off, Shane (I believe that was his name) who was in charge of the N group, you did awesome. Thank you for that and thanks to Mason for the tips later in the day.

    Next, for those of us running a decent pace (groups 1-3)...the morning sessions were brutal. Our coach was going so slow at one point his lines didn't even make sense.

    After lunch it got slightly better. But the amount of slow riders actually made some parts of the track dangerous. 3 of us actually got off the track about halfway through the first session after lunch. Because we didn't want to crash or cause another rider to go down. I passed a slow rider on the outside of a turn with at least 10 feet of space and she freaked out and almost ran off the track. The 1:40 and 2:40 sessions were good, good pace and I patiently made my way through traffic on the straights without any issues. The 3:40 session didn't start until 3:50 and ended shortly after because someone crashed on the second lap I believe.

    I packed up and went home for my own safety and at that point I wasn't able to have fun while being able to learn at a decent pace.

    I understand there are going to be slow riders, I was that person at one point too. BUT I expect the coaches to be aware of the slow riders and stay with them the entire day if need be. You can not turn someone loose on a race track if its their first day. It isn't safe.
     
  2. E-Van

    E-Van What's an apex?

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    Are you supposed to be passing in a turn in Novice?

    Don't forget we were all that slow guy once. Some of us still are.
     
  3. RyanG

    RyanG n00b

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    On the outside. Slow is fine, but slow and unpredictable is not.

    For those of us running under 2:00 a lap we want to at least be able to pass on the straight without worrying about a slower rider swerving over at the last minute because they think that need to be over to one side of the track or another because they have a turn approaching.
     
  4. TLR67

    TLR67 Cheers!
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    Did you let coach's and the lead instructor know about this ASAP? We always try to accommodate everyone's needs to make their weekend 100% good.. However once you leave we cant do anything....Did you ask to be bumped up by chance? I cant speak for the staff this weekend because I was not there.. However if you do a search here it will be pretty tough to find anyone else complaining about our Novice group on any weekend... Are you a Novice or did you just go in that group because nothing else was available?
     
  5. RyanG

    RyanG n00b

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    We brought it up to our instructor because and we had a mandatory meeting during lunch. I have ridden all year with STT in N group and there's never been an issue. This weekend I just felt like the track wasn't safe. Like I said 2 of the sessions were great. And there was no need in bringing anything else up at that point in the day because the day was over and I was leaving. I didn't ask to be bumped. That seems like what every single novice's main goal is and im not out there just to be bumped. Ive been content in Novice all year.

    I always have a blast at the track, being with my track friends and away from the real world. But my safety is far more important.
     
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  6. indy

    indy What's an apex?

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    Since you have done other days, you know this isn't normal.
    Second, would have said to yes mention it again. Having riders in groups moved around is normal and since no two days are the same being moved down from 2 to 3 because the riders are that much faster happens.
    Third, I understand your points but would ask you to consider this was an opportunity you didn't seize.
    Lastly, I would have told you to take a break, plan on the last couple of sessions. Most of the newer riders bail and don't run the last two. Many times I have been one of 3 last session of the day.
    I promise you when you do get bumped you will experience an I rider who isn't as fast as you but has a bigger engine. This becomes a chance for me to figure out how to make the most of setting up for the best place to pass because it isn't the straights.
    In your case, getting setup to legally pass in the straights should have been your challenge. While an outside pass is fine in I it isn't in N.
    Passing on the inside isn't legal in I, but it's happened many times to me. Being able to react will become more important as you progress and things speed up. Trust me, there are some big mistakes that happen in I and A, what happens many times is how the other rider reacts.

    I would bet if you found the girl she was freaked and I hope this didn't give her an impression that STT doesn't try to help all of us at our levels.
    While you found it not as safe as prior days, compared to the street or an MCRA event I promise it was safe.


    I feel your frustration and will say it loud and proud, I've ridden with many other groups.
    Not every STT event was perfect and having said that compared to the others they have been consistently the best organization out there. PERIOD.

    Trust you will give it another try, just consider that Barber is harder than most because the straights are not that long.
     
  7. VernLux

    VernLux Knows an apex

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    I'm not sure how you got to be mis-informed about the highlighted info above, but outside passes are completely legal in the Novice group and Inside passes are completely legal in the Intermediate group. Both groups require a 6' passing distance between you and the bike you are passing, but as I stated outside in Novice is OK and Inside in Intermediate is OK.
     
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  8. indy

    indy What's an apex?

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    Thanks Vern, stand corrected. Been a while since N, must of been another org. they had no passing but on the straights.
    Sorry for mis-speaking.
     
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  9. VernLux

    VernLux Knows an apex

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    First, I'm sorry that you didn't have a great weekend at Barber....that in itself is pretty unusual. As you know, there is always going to be a wide disparity of rider speeds in the Novice as well as the Intermediate groups. Some of the veteran novices have been doing it long enough that they are either ready or almost ready to move up to I group, and of course there are folks who are experiencing their very first day on the track. Intermediate is no different....riders who have just moved up to I and riders that are ready or almost ready to bump to A group. The bottom line is there will be a disparity of speed from one end of the spectrum to the other. That is part of the learning process of becoming a better rider; being able to safely approach and pass slower riders. That is one of the key elements of being comfortable on the track is looking far enough ahead to be aware of a slower rider, adjust your line if necessary, and pass them where legal to pass (outside and straights in Novice) and do it all in a safe manner. I don't understand your logic in your statement...."But the amount of slow riders actually made some parts of the track dangerous." There will always be faster riders and slower riders on the track at the same time.....it's just something that you learn to accept and proceed safely past.

    As far as one of the coaches going so slow that his lines didn't make sense, it's pretty hard to stay on a "race" line at a much slower pace. And if it was in one of the first sessions, while eveyone was still in groups, a coach can only pass another group and bring his riders with him when the coach that is in front of him waves the group by. I was leading group 1 on Sunday and we got stuck behind a slower group for a while......it happens sometimes! And I'm certainly not going to not follow protocol and bring my group around another group without the wave by from the coach in front of me.....that's how folks get hurt out on the track.

    And BTW, since Sunday was a sold out day, as was Saturday, management doesn't really have the option of moving folks up or down, as they would on a day that isn't sold out.
     
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  10. VernLux

    VernLux Knows an apex

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    That too is part of the learning process for new riders......learning to be smooth and predictable. In fact, smooth and predictable goes a lot further in my evaluations for a bump than out and out speed around the track. If someone is a bit slower, but is perfectly predictable with their lines, the speed will come. I will NEVER bump a fast rider that isn't smooth, predictable, AND courteous with their passing and patience for a clean pass.
     
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  11. Prufrock

    Prufrock traffic

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    Easy solution. Get out of novice.
     
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  12. RyanG

    RyanG n00b

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    Of course. But that doesn't make the Novice class any safer does it?

    I just do not think it is right for first time riders to be cut loose on a race track their first day. Its not safe for them, and its not safe for me.

    Ive ridden with STT for a year now and have enjoyed it. I will continue to ride with the org but I may have to consider a bump in the near future.
     
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  13. Prufrock

    Prufrock traffic

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    There's always going to be one person who probably isn't up the average group pace. It's up to you as the passing bike to get around the safely. You'll find the same people in intermediate and advanced as you get progress.
     
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  14. VernLux

    VernLux Knows an apex

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    No problem, I just wanted to make sure it was clarified. :cool:
     
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  15. SGTJimbo

    SGTJimbo Found the apex, now what do I do with it?
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    I have not done Barber and was not there this weekend, but this is spot on. Sometimes getting behind slower riders can have a side benefit. Practice setting them up for a pass. After doing that for a few corners you can perfect your own preparation for the pass as well as gauge what line they are going to take. Staying right on their butt and just riding irritated isn't helping you. Use those moments to continue to learn.

    Learning to pass is one of the hardest things to learn, learning at a slow pace and perfecting it is much easier than trying to learn when you are riding closer to your limit. Slow is smooth, smooth is fast.
     
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  16. s102000

    s102000 Rides with no training wheels

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    Being behind slower riders is the perfect opportunity to learn how to pass safely. If you don't fill comfortable being behind some riders then do a hot pit. I ride Intermediate on a R3 and I can't pass in the straights very much so I have to be precise when I pass in a corner. I rode this past Saturday in Novice because all the Inter was sold out and I had a blast passing on the outside. You have to pick and chose who you pass, I followed a couple of laps and knew they were predictable so the next lap I went around.

    STT coaches do a wonderful job at keeping everyone safe but they can't be everywhere all the time in all situations.
     
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  17. mastermindtrev

    mastermindtrev camping in turn 2...
    STT Staff Director

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    Hiya,

    Firstly - I am sorry you had a less than stellar day - unfortunately it can happen. As Forest Gump says, "trackdays are like a box of chocolates, you just never know what you're going to get".... (or was that something else... anyway, it fits for trackdays). It's always a different mix of people out there - sometimes faster, sometimes slower - and that goes for all the groups, not just novice of course.

    Shawn called a meeting for the novices because things were getting a little loose out there - some of the faster folks were not passing within the rules and we needed to reinforce the rules to the group as a whole. Again, this isn't something we always have to do, but if we feel things are getting out of hand we do tell everyone to calm down.

    I am a little mystified about the comment "I just do not think it is right for first time riders to be cut loose on a race track their first day". Within our novice program, we generally treat riders according to their individual skills and needs in each group, to the best of our ability (we are, after all, just a trackday org and not a full on school). If a rider wants, or needs to work with a coach all day in novice, it happens. Conversely, the more experienced novices are cut loose so that they can ride and have fun. How this all happens, in what groups, and what sessions, is on a complete sliding scale as, again, every day at the track, and every collection of riders, is different. STT has generally been regarded as having the most structured novice program in the industry (although other orgs have tried to copy our novice program to one degree or another) - we have actually LOST customers because they feel that our program is too structured and restricts their fun (although I also know that we have some great novice riders that prefer us over other orgs because of the active instruction and structure).

    Again, I cannot imagine ANY of our instructors abandoning a novice rider who requests, or who the coach feels, needs 1on1 instruction. When we did our Monday at Barber after the MotoAmerica round there, we were quite short staffed, so I personally was the lead novice instructor for the day. Working as a director I don't really get to coach that much anymore and I jump at any opportunity to coach at the track now. In addition to running the class, I took a group on track, and in the end worked with one rider all day until the very last session. It was probably the most fun I've had at the track all year.

    ALL of our coaches in ALL our groups are ALWAYS available for riders whenever they want - this is a value that is at the very core of Sportbike Track Time - and always has been. I have coached for this organization for well over 10 years - we take the level of on track instruction we provide very seriously, and we hold all our coaches to a very high standard. If you ever have issue with a coach, or feel a coach has abandoned you at an event, you can always email me to let me know and have me straighten it out: trevor@sportbiketracktime.com.

    best,
    t
     
  18. r1madman

    r1madman Rides with no training wheels

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    I'm going to echo Trevor's comments here, as I personally had some of my riders request extra follow time from me, which I GLADLY provided. I am sure that ANY of this (and ANY) weekend's riders who requested extra time and instruction from their coaches received it. It is brought up in every class right before the Point to Pass session begins that if a rider wants to follow their coach for THE REST OF THE DAY they certainly can do just that if they choose to.
     
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  19. RyanG

    RyanG n00b

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    I never have had an issue with a coach and feel that they do their job well 99.9% of the time. I have a few select coaches I tend to ask for help from. This weekend I stuck behind Mason whenever I could.

    Coming out of the very last turn onto the front straight the individual was on the far INSIDE of the track, as I came around that turn and swung to the outside of the front straight she quickly darted over about to the outside. That is not safe riding. Ill say it again....slow is fine! But slow and unpredictable is not. There was a discussion on a private track day group on facebook about this, so I am not the only one that saw the issue out there Sunday.
     
  20. tnskydivr

    tnskydivr Shut up and Jump!
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    I was a Novice coach on Sunday. Group 5. I am also a new Lead.

    We had a full house in all the groups, so we had people of a wide skill-set on both Saturday and Sunday, WITHOUT the ability to bump. There were a lot of riders who signed up in Novice because Intermediate was full (their fault for waiting until the last moment) and were itching for a bump. This created a situation with the first 4-5 groups all 'veteran novice' groups, which means we try to point-to-pass earlier than the remaining groups. This creates another situation where we had up to 30+ riders all cut loose in the same session in the same sequence - which makes us all nervous that they don't end up in the same corner at the same time.

    I had 6 riders in my group. 4 of them veteran novice, and the other two first time on the track (yep, the 'wide-range' that has been spoken of). While the first 4 riders were capable of riding themselves, the other two needed to be led as this was a new track to them - so, after talking to the lead and pre-arranging my intent, I didn't start point-pass until after the 4th lap, trying to fine clear space so they could get safely off without losing my other two riders. I kept and led the other two riders with me. In the afternoon, I also finally let those two riders go after having a chance to show them the line. I know some of the riders in my group were itching to be cut loose, but I explained to them my concern and it seemed they all understood the reasons and the rules. While doing that, we had to ride off the race line to make room for the other groups to pass - it's standard procedure. And yes, the race line doesn't make that much sense at lower speeds.

    After we let the riders go in the afternoon, all the coaches park over to the side, and riders who want individual instruction are encouraged to come and ask us for a pull, or to be evaluated for a bump (btw, Mason is a GREAT coach). I had two riders ask me for a bump eval so they could sign up for I the next month - and neither of them IMHO were predictable enough to give it. And then I went out with a faster, but inexperienced-to-trackdays rider to lead/follow him around some, and promptly lowsided in turn 17 (VERY embarrassing)...I apologize I wasn't out their later to help those riders that wanted it.

    Frequently, we will find a rider that is so new and uncomfortable that we will put two coaches on them, one to lead and one to 'block' to keep the faster riders off their back and let them know we are trying to offer extra protection for that rider - when we have the staff to do it. While the goal is for EVERY rider to have a good time, the over-riding priority is safety. Our sport is a dangerous one, the staff does what it can to mitigate that danger for all riders even if some feel like they didn't get what they paid for.

    We also circulate and try to spot 'unpredictable' or 'overly aggressive' riders in order to anticipate and prevent accidents - but we miss a lot, too, and count on other riders and the flag workers to bring it to our attention.

    I tell everyone that, when I was a customer, in January I bought March AND October to ensure I had a slot, as October is the "IT" month that everyone wants - and it's always 100% full.

    The staff encourages feedback from our customers - which also means we have to have a thick skin, as it's not always going to be positive. For those riders that had a less-than-stellar experience, we encourage you to sign up EARLIER to ensure you can get in the group that your skills best fit.

    Lastly, remember that a 'tactical pit' to find clean track is always encouraged!
     

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