Lorenzo / Marquez / Rossi

My take: Gotta break this down into separate questions:

1. Was MM messing with Rossi at Phillip Island? BLUF: YES. You can look at Marquez's lap times, and see he slowed up to toy with Rossi, then kicked it up a notch to go run down and beat Lorenzo at the end. Several riders noticed it.

2. Was MM again playing with Rossi at Sepang? BLUF: YES. Watch the video..when MM would pass Rossi, he would check up (watch how his bike failed to accellerate away on the exits and we KNOW the Honda is stronger on exits. Also, MM said he had braking/front tire issues, but NEVER claimed he had any exiting problems. Some of his passes looked like he snapped his bike at Rossi and it's a wonder that he didn't make contact/take Rossi out (but he didn't). I think he was just trying to let Dani/Lorenzo get enough of a lead that Rossi could not catch, then was going to take off and go run them down. Rossi in the past has toyed with people he was trying to beat, but his motus operandi is to follow close and get the other rider to make a mistake - if he could pass, he passed and kept going. Anybody remember Lorenzo slowing down the last race a year or two aga waiting for MM in order to try and mix it up with him and get him to make a mistake?

3. Did MM put some questionable passes on Rossi? BLUF: YES. Again, watch the video of the laps preceeding.

4. Did Rossi lose his temper with MM, and in turn 14 make a grave mistake? BLUF: YES. Rossi had not business forcing MM outside. If he was indeed "Trying to get a wider exit", then he would not have given that LONG look back at MM TWICE to see that he was forcing him off the track. I think this is the mistake that Rossi is paying for, NOT MM's crash. Now, I'm a HUGE Rossi fan, but Rossi should not have done that, and there are consequences. If MM did this to Rossi, the fans would be screaming for MM's head. Rossi should have held his cool, continued to ride his race, then make HIS case to race direction that MM was intentionally toying with him. He wanted the Championship too badly.

5. Did Rossi actually kick MM's brakes to cause him to crash? BLUF: Indeterminate. It sure looked like it, but isn't that the purpose of the lever guard? Wouldn't Rossi's knee hit the lever guard instead of MM's hand/brake lever? Yes MM made the first contact, but he was about to get run off the track, and who would have thought Rossi would deliberately take that kind of line when he could easily turn back in and head on down the track? What I need to see again is if Rossi was looking at MM when his knee moved, which would appear to make it more deliberate.

6. Was the punishment worth it? BLUF: IMHO again, unfortuately, YES. MotoGP CANNOT have that kind of riding, no matter who it is, even the FACE of MotoGP (Rossi). IMHO what Rossi needs to do immediately get out there and say "I lost my temper, I let him get the best of me. No matter how badly Marc was taunting and toying with me, I should not have intentionally pushed him wide, which put us in the position of him crashing. I did not intentionally kick his brake lever, but I did not consider that might be the consequence of doing so. I apologize to Marc, MotoGP and all my fans for letting my anger and desire to win the Championship get the best of me. I accept the punishment of race direction." - only THIS will keep his fan base....

 

I agree with everything you have written, but RD did look at the Lorenzo/yellow flag moment and said it was a non-event. The flag came out just as he initiated his pass and neither he or Rossi could not possibly have seen it. It was also later determined that the flag was waved in error (however that doesn't really matter in terms of innocence/guilt).

I thought, as Lorenzo would be the one to benefit from a harsher Rossi punishment, that he would have been well advised to have kept his opinions to himself and deferred to Race Direction's decision. Or, at least to save his opinions until after the championship is decided.

I find it so amazing to see the vitrol on Twitter and blogs over this. People who have decided they know what is in each rider's mind. I dislike MM. But until the day I know he is proven to be a liar, I grant him the respect he is due. He said he wasn't messing with Rossi deliberately (in Philip Island anyway, I haven't heard his statement to that effect for Sepang), so I believe him. VR says he did not intentionally kick out at MM's bike, and so I believe him. In any event, regardless of deliberate kick or not, what VR did to MM was setup the scenario by which he did crash. And that, as far as I know, no one disputes. (even VR himself agrees)

What I do find fascinating however is this ethic that the Europeans seem to have (maybe it's here in the US as well, but I've not witnessed it) about how you are to treat contenders. I first became introduced to it in professional bicycling. If a leader, a contender, has a flat or some sort of mechanical problem, everyone is expected to slow up and not press on hard. That boggles my mind. That same contender, earlier in the race, almost certainly pressed on hard while someone suffered a mechanical. But now that they are clearly one of the leading contenders, everyone else is supposed to treat them gently? Bugger that!

I heard the same comment made about MM and VR in this race. That MM should just leave VR alone because he's fighting for the championship. Bugger that! If that's the way it's expected to be then I'd quickly lose interest in the sport. It should be balls out until the last finish line is crossed. And if in the last race MM takes out VR and that means championship goes to JL, then that's the way the cookie crumbles. But apparently not in European circles. The only reason that 'contender' may be in his position is because he didn't have to follow such niceties in the first half of the season. I think all is fair, all season long, and there should be no such "unwritten rules".

And if MM really was messing with VR? VR needs to man-up and figure out how to best overcome him. And that does not involve whining and running him off the track.

I went to bed Sunday morning rather disgusted with the whole thing (what a change in feeling from the week before). I kept hoping I'd wake up later Sunday to a VR apology both to media and personally to MM. Instead, my negative opinion of VR is now sealed. Great rider. Made a mistake. Chose not to sincerely apologize for it. Also, feels entitled to race with no one impeding him (why did the rest of the field even bother showing up then?)

I'll bet Dany Kent and Miquel Olivera were really pissed off at those other 5 riders getting in their way in the Moto3 race in Sepang. The nerve of those other riders!

Ok, I'm ranting now... checking out...

 

Going to be an interesting week for sure....

 

Hold on though. If I were MM and I was really mad about Rossi calling me out, I would have blasted past everyone and put 10 seconds between Rossi and I. Then I would have laughed historically at his claims. However, MM did not do this. In my opinion he messed with Rossi more at Sepang than he did at Phillip Island.

If another racer was messing with you for the the second (maybe third race) and was ruining your chance to win the championship, would you try to push him out? Rossi stated his intention was to "slow down a lot" and push Marc wide so that he would have to stomp the brake and would drop way back. Instead Marc still tried to cram it on the outside.

I would not go as far to say that it is Marc's fault, but he definitely would not have been in that crash if he ran the race to his maximum. He could have out rode Pedrosa, this track suits the Honda's well. Personally, I find it to be insanely disrespectful to the sport and the fans, for Marc to intentionally interfere with a championship that he has no stake in by riding less than 100% and getting in front of Rossi with the sole intention to hold him back.

 

I'm a fan of both riders. My wife and I both thought it was OBVIOUS that MM was taking wacky lines to get in front of VR and then not driving out of the corner. The gap was opening hugely while he was doing it. MM doesn't go backward from the leaders like that.

The exact opposite could have happened a few corners prior when MM took Rossi WAY WIDE, exactly like Rossi took MM in the incident. The only difference was Rossi wasn't crazy enough to turn in on him.

Like I said, I'm a fan of both, but I don't think Rossi owes an apology because I think he was reciprocating MM's behavior, turn for turn. God help Marquez if Rossi had fallen... the kid would need 24/7 bodyguards.

Either way, MotoGP's going to have good ratings for Valencia.

 

There is a huge, monumental difference between racing your race regardless of the championship and directly interfering with the championship. If MM raced his race and place between JLo and VR then that would be one thing. However, deliberately slowing down and creating situations where you are dog fighting is entirely different.

I think MMs pace was faster than anyone else at Sepang but he "had trouble" passing Rossi with a "cold tire" (funny the guy why has historically had cold tire issues had a line to line first place on the same bike...) I noticed that MM was making "stupid errors" and "running wide" every time that Rossi was behind him. However, as soon as Rossi passed MM had no problem backing it in right past Rossi on the brakes, trail braking deep into the corner... Quite a few passes that MM threw at Rossi were really close as well.

Coming back around, yes Rossi made a huge error in judgement AND SHOULD APOLOGIZE FOR HIS ACTIONS. Although, there is a lot of evidence that MM was a stronger rider on this circuit and he continued to mess with Rossi. I think that more people need to actually come out against MMs actions as well. Every pass in the MGP is dangerous, I think it is reckless for MM to create situations like this just for his own personal joy. Neither Rossi nor MM were a good representation of what the MGP stands for on Sunday in Sepang.

 

I think, in the end, this is the difference between us. And I am NOT saying you are wrong, just that this is the difference. I take MM at his word, and I do not see anything obvious in the racing that tells me his word is no good. You are not taking him at his word and you do look at the race and believe he could have gone faster at points. You believe he could have accelerated away, and I have no opinion on that. I do not know that he could, and he says he could not.

I will say that other people, objective people who follow MotoGP for a living, have said what you have said. But I have asked them to provide me with unequivocal evidence of this and I have yet to receive it. It could be that the evidence is there, in the numbers, but that it is hard to present it in a way everyone would readily understand. Or, it could be that it's just a gut-instinct thing for them. Nonetheless, as someone who has never been a MM fan, I have not been given enough evidence to trump his word that he was simply trying to race and could not get away.

If anyone has what they believe is incontrovertible proof, I am all ears. And this is not a challenge, I am sincere. But I simply cannot make that leap to saying "I know" what MM was thinking and what his bike was capable of in the heat of that racetrack.

 

The ppl that have the biggest voice in MotoGP is the riders.... if they want to stand up for what's right (not saying VR overreacting was right but it did seem that MM was targeting him to control his pace - that and the fact that MM has a history of pulling shit on the track) they should all line up and as soon as the green flag drops, they should all allow VR to get up to the front to fight with JL, DP, MM. This would send a clear message that IF there is an intent to control the championship, the riders will NOT put up with it.

 

"they should all line up and as soon as the green flag drops, they should all allow VR to get up to the front to fight with JL, DP, MM"

That "click" you'd hear next is half the world turning off their sets in disgust. I think if the majority felt MM was playing with VR and that the punishment was harsh, then people would appreciate such an act. But, at present, I believe approximately half the interested population feels the punishment was reasonable or light. The other half, of course, feel it was unjustified.

But, this is sort of moot anyway because, as I understand it, European mores indicate that with or without this incident that the riders will "stand aside" for a championship contender (everyone except MM of course

 

Yeah, ouch. So do you think making VR start from the back row is a death sentence to his championship?

Mathematically, if JL takes second and VR takes fourth, the championship comes to a tie, right?

 

VR has to have more points.. a tie goes to Jlo for winning more races...
if Jlo finishes 2 VR has to be 3
jlo 3 I believe VR has to be 6th
if Jlo 4th.. then VR can be 9th...

 

In which case Lorenzo wins because he has more wins. I don't see Rossi getting to the front in good dry conditions. There are too many fast guys in the way. Realistically, the only chance Rossi has is if Lorenzo DNF's or makes some huge mistakes that sets him back several places (like botching the start ala COTA 2014).

 

I could be wrong, but I *believe* that in this scenario Jorge wins the championship because he has won 5 races to Rossi's 4 this year.

And no, my crystal ball says Rossi wins the world title. I'm very unhappy with my crystal ball right now. :-(

 

Great write-up - balanced: https://motomatters.com/analysis/2015/10/27/2015_sepang_motogp_round_up_heroes_who_h.html

 

What a dirty move!!! If you pulled that crap at a CCS race they'd ban you for life!

I wish I could say that this was the first time Rossi has done something like this. There was one season that Rossi put Giberneau in the dirt several times. This incident will tarnish his career for ever.

 

This sums it up nicely, thanks for posting.

 

should have made MM sit out for the last race. Dock points only for rossi and let the racing continue for the finale. MM let lorenzo go without even a fight but was diving into every turn and disrupting rossi. No one would have a problem if MM raced for a win, but he wasnt, it was obvious to everyone watching the last two races.

 

Everybody who knows racing saw that what little dwarf MM did. He intentionally slowed to F with Vale-
very solvable solution. Extend the olive branch to MM and his girlfriend Jorge to come to the ranch for fun BBQ and dirt tracking.... then introduce them to 10 of the baddest, meanest, Rossi fans behind his pit..... let me be one please.... I shit bigger than MM--what he did will make him hated no matter how many times he wins the championship,,,,little faggots

 

Wow, you're a big time hater!