I hadn't seen this discussed anywhere else, but I figure it's worth bringing up now that more and more bikes have track worthy ABS systems. In the novice classroom they tell you not to touch the rear brake on track from session 1.... I've always presumed this was to keep us people with non-alien talent from finding ourselves backing into a corner; Does a good ABS system turn this advice on its ear? I've been thinking about the pros and cons of bringing the rear brake into play, and this is what I've come up with: Pros: -In initial braking, you have slightly more braking power, which means slightly later braking. -While trail braking, the rear brake doesn't stand the bike up like the front brake does, which would let the bike turn in easier. -In mid-corner, the rear brake would do a finer, smoother, job of modulating corner speed than getting on and off the throttle. -At exit, the rear brake would more gradually rein in a rear tire that was spinning up than chopping the throttle would, meaning less chance of high-side. Cons: -Covering the rear brake will cost you ground clearance on right turns. All that being said, I routinely discover I'm not as smart as I think I am, so I figured I'd seek the sage wisdom of the more experienced riders on here to see If I'm headed down a good path or not.
I would think that under heavy braking that most of the weight is on the front and you need it there to shorten the geometry of the bike for turn in. Second, the front brakes are generating the heat that you use (especially coming off a long straight where the tire has cooled) for you front tires traction. Third, If ABS rear braking was appropriate or efficient then all the MotoGP, WSB, BSB, and M.A. teams would be running the H@## out of it. Finally, I have a feeling that ABS works fine when not allowing the front wheel to actually lock, but I know that ABS does nothing for front wheel push and front wheel chatter. Your rear wheel is so light under heavy braking that it is usually off the ground or skipping and I doubt that wheel spin or measurement of that kind can even be measured for it to engage. Even when trail braking into a corner, I doubt that appropriate feel of the rear brake (through riding boots) could be measured and you definitely need all the traction you can muster in the rear wheel for when you start your slow, steady, and smooth roll on of the throttle.
ive been in A for two years and just now am starting to toy with the rear brake when coming into "bus stop" kinda turns
In general here, we're over analyzing using a technology that the benefits are less useful then seat time and developed skills would be. Pro 1: Yes you'll have a small amount of braking available. I will sometimes start with a rear brake application when going HEAVY to the brakes or when braking down hill. Not so much for braking, but to settle the chassis down into the stroke to minimize how fast the weight transfers forward and how much the initial pitching action gains momentum. Pro 2: In theory. The standing up of the bike is not a result of using the brake, it's a result of bike balance and geometry of the chassis. Balance and geometry are what help the bike turn in easier or more difficult. Braking with the front brake keeps the front end down in the fork stroke. This steepens the rake slightly and helps the bike turn in easier. When you have the balance wrong, when turning in and braking, the bike will not want to stand up, but it will want to fall in!!!! This is when you adjust the chassis and geometry to find the sweet spot. Pro 3: This again comes down to skill development more then using the brakes. Unless absolutely necessary, I never am on and off the brakes. A perfect turn is maximum braking, lighter and progressively less braking till the bike is point the right direction and headed to the apes (trail braking). From this point. If you're at the apex and slowed sufficiently. You would go to maintenance throttle. Just enough throttle to maintain your corner speed. This could last for fractions of a second or whole seconds depending on the type of corner. Then once you know the bike will track to it's exit point, you begin to take away lean angle and smoothy apply throttle. In decreasing radius corners, a small amount of rear brake application will help the bike tighten up the line without as big an upset to chassis balance mid corner. Do this carefully. Should lock the rear brake leaned over, you'll be in a predicament quicker then you can realize. Pro 4: Correct. As long as your super skills are so good that you caught it before it got to sideways on exit. Once the tire begins spinning the whole game changes. Chop the throttle, you could regain grip and high side. Over apply rear brake, gain grip. High side. Controlling a spinning tire is best done with skill and practice. Tuned with body position, line and the right hand. An art that many people struggle with. The ABS may keep you from locking up the rear tire, but a tire doesn't have to be locked up to high side. It's the traction and direction the wheels are pointed that help induce a high side. Con 1: Correct. But this would very minimal and possibly only noticed when cornering at maximum lean angle. They do make shorter brake levers to help with this and to allow you easier access to the rear brake when your foot is nearer proper position on the peg. Matt Mladin stated he used the rear brake on exit as wheelie control. He wanted that throttle open as soon as possible and was determined to keep it that way! I would definitely not state that the ABS technology has changed how we ride a motorcycle. If it did, every racer would have a bike with ABS on it. It certainly doesn't hurt. But it's kind of like saying with Traction control you'll never high side! Well it still happens. Just not as often. I like your logic. But the benefits of our technological advances don't truly become significant performance gains until you're searching for that last 10% of the bikes performance limits. I have gone out on quiet days when traffic is light and done rear brake only drills. It's amazing how much can be done with the rear brake. When braking at maximum on the front wheel, there is little to no weight or traction available to the rear tire. The largest gains in safety, consistency and skill development will come from comfort and confidence in using the front brake. Adding rear sometimes distracts your attention from the front and costs more time then it gains. I like your logic and thinking out of the box! Keep those brain skills sharp.
Justin if you're in the proper gear and high in the RPM range engine compression braking should accomplished most of what you're looking for without ever having to touch the rear brakes.
Noooooooooo, your breaking the #6 rule! Use motorcycle parts for what they are meant for. Brakes do the braking and motor powers the rear. Never coasting so no engine compression!
If engine braking is any significant part of your braking activity. You're not using enough of the brakes.
I'll rephrase things into a couple questions to try and keep things from going off on tangents: 1) Do the top tier riders in MotoGP, WSBK, etc use the rear brake and, if so, when? 2) Is the only reason new riders are told not to use the rear brake because of the potential consequences of locking up the rear? The more experienced you get, the closer you get to the limits of the bike... The closer you get to the limits of the bike, the more likely a minor mistake will put you on your head. I figure if the rear brake is a useful tool that I can safely use, I'd prefer to start learning how to use it now and get it committed to muscle memory while the gap between mine and my bike's ability is still wide enough for the bike to absorb most of my mistakes.
Yes, top level riders use the rear brake for two reasons that I have heard them mention on TV - Keeping the front down when topping small crest and backing the bike into a corner. Most all teams have a thumb brake and they use it to obtain the pressure "feel" that you can not get through a boot. That being said, I do not think any top level race bike in the world has ABS on the rear???
As stated before and from my experience... the second I get into a hard braking zone my rear tire isn't even touching the ground and I am more concerned about the balancing act I have going on trying to turn in on the front wheel. I do a little experimenting with the back brakes when I'm getting the bike to back in but 99% of the time its all front brake for me and I still back in with front brake only. I would be concerned about seat time and hitting your markers before I would even discuss back brakes. I have a pretty wild ABS system on my Panigale and it's sole purpose is to control rear wheel lift... In the manual it mentions nothing about wheel lock it only mentions more or less rear wheel lift.
Very interesting? I am sure with the appropriate data logger push pull sensor you could design a type of traction control that would govern the motors power and never allow the rear wheel off the ground. Like Anti-Wheelie, except for the rear wheel! Blaammmmmooooooo (Lightbulb) -------BUT WHAT FUN WOULD THAT BE?
Bmw, Kawasaki, Aprilia, MV, Ducati already have a system designed to keep your rear wheel down on the ground, it works in conjunction with ABS. I belive it is called rear wheel lift-up mitigation. http://motoress.com/ride/moto-savvy/understanding-motorcycle-abs/
Just some random thoughts..... - If you ride a big twin a lot (I've thrashed a few different Ducati's around the track) you're not really interested in the rear brake - the engine and clutch can act in the same way. - when you start riding a 3 or 4 cyl moto, you start to think, "Huh, what's that rear brake for, anyway" (other than when you go off course). - I have ABS on my Triumph, and I do enjoy the feeling of it on the rear brake.... I can tell when the rear is locking up when I'm using it under braking. As others have stated, the rear can get very light in braking, so it's easy to lock up...... - You don't need a rear brake until about mid-A pace...... it's of no use in Novice or Intermediate.... you're simply not going fast enough. t
Triumph Daytona R has ABS on/circuit/off. Circuit mode allows you to lift your rear up before it will kick in. Of course, you can turn it off, and back it in! Of course, Trevor beat me to it.