No offense, I just didn't think that asking automatically disqualifies. No major disagreement, and I appreciate the input. For me, I just ant to be where it is safest. I have no experience with "I". Novice really concerns me when they open up passing. If I could go out every weekend and ride in Novice with only Groups 1-3 on the track, that would be perfect. Hell, I'd never go to "I" because I am not seeking the fastest times around the track. I am in absolutely no hurry to remove "Novice" from my group label. I could not care less. I want to be where I can be safest, and yet still enjoy riding at a reasonable pace. I said I was doing 3:12's at autobahn full this past Monday - I could be happy ridng at that pace for the rest of my track-riding days. I suspect that I will get faster just by making tweaks here and there. But if I never do a 3:11 I wouldn't shed a tear. I was enjoying the pace and having fun. So, no drive at all, except for safety, to put an "I" sticker on my bike. If anyone convinces me Novice is where safety is at, despite my concerns, then I'll fight tooth and nail to stay in Novice (and to be clear, I am not convinced Intermediate is safer. But I witness the errors, and sometimes outright stupidity, in Novice and I can only help but wonder if maybe I should be inquiring about Intermediate. I may be delusional, but I am confident in my abilities and my focus on safety (smooth, reasonable, not fast at all cost). I am convinced that if something happens on the track, that it will be due to someone else not practisng the same. So, for me, question becomes where can I mitigate that risk best? If it's Novice then I'll gladly stay and ride groups 1 or 2 forever. Thanks to everyone for all the input. Couple mentioned I might have been offended. Sorry if I came across that way. No offense taken. I appreciate ALL of the input!
I guess i should clarify what consistency means.......as a coach, i want everyone to work on being more consistent, not because i want you to be faster, because consistency breeds safety........ If you are doing the same things over and over again, this develops good habits, makes it easier for you to pass or be passed, and generally makes everyones ride better through safer riding.......this game is not about speed, it is about safety, and consistency is the key to safety. This is why using markers is an important goal for everyone on track.
As others have said, being predictable AND consistent with good lines around the entire track, goes a long way towards moving up to the next group. When I evaluate someone for a bump, I always take notice of not only that, but also how courteous they are when they are in traffic and trying to pass other riders on track. The last thing I want to do is to bump up a "problem" rider to the next level. Having said that ^^^^^^, one of the important factors in becoming predictable AND consistent is to learn AND use markers for braking, turn in, apex, and corner exit. It simply cannot be done without markers.
Good point I had not considered. The more I have thought about it, the more confident I have become that I would use markers if I had the ability to ride at my pace consistently. At present however, when I ride Novice, I rarely get to approach the same turn at the same speed twice in a given session. I know I can't expect free space consistently, but it's so rare now that establishing markers seems pointless. I can try, and will, but I wonder just how often I'll be able to use those markers when there is normally so much traffic to navigate. And since I can only pass in the straights, I must hold up for the traffic unless I can clear it long before the turn. The longer the track, the easier it becomes of course. But, for example, on Autobahn North I just can't see it being helpful unless it's last 2, maybe 3, sessions of the day. Thanks for making me think of it in a different way. In Novice now, since I am the one doing the passing more often than not, I had not considered my use of markers making things safer for others. Also, I am a wimp when it comes to safety and so I only pass when I see that I can acheive a wide spread between me and the bike I just passed as we head into a turn. I've seen too many cases of Novice riders misjudging their momentum and running straight; being t-boned as I start to make a turn is one of my big fears, which is why I have practiced carrying high corner speed so as to be in that position as briefly as possible. But, as you rightly point out, to ride in "I" means getting passed often and my use of markers will ensure a level of consistency that helps keep me and others safe. I'm now sold! I just have to find the space to use them. But, until then, I'll start making notes on those turns where I am unimpeded on my approach. Thanks!
As you improve, you will need to use something as a marker. It may be in your peripheral, but you are probably starting to use them now but don't necessarily know it. Remember, markers are also FLUID..as you get faster you will need to adjust those markers outwards..as you get better in braking, you will start to pull them back in. Rather than "marker"..."reference point" might be a better description. As you watch the most precise, consistent rider in MotoGP (Lorenzo) - he hits the same spot within a half inch, time and time again at inhuman speeds...he's picked out his reference points. You will need to learn to use them to improve - consciously or subconsciously... Lastly, you might not think so, but Intermediate is the MOST dangerous group, not novice...because of how wide the speed/skill gap is...and that's where everyone gets ahead of themselves...just an observation. People that don't use them usually get suckered into the "too fast, too deep" syndrome, and end up off the track...an off-track 'excursion' or two will definitely increase your desire to find reference points....
So in reading you post, the thing that struck me was that although you believe you are ready for the next group, you express that you cannot find space in the Novice group. This is a common theme and something I also echoed back during my time in that group. A very wise person told me many years ago that in the Beginner/Novice group momentum is everything. What I mean by that is although you are limited to when you can pass, where you pass is directly related to your momentum. An example of this is catching slower rider(s) on the straight and then realizing you will not be able to pass before the corner. What do you do? If you run up on him and can't make it, you have to brake more to not break the passing rule, also resulting in you losing momentum following through the corner. Jeez I can't find space, I am faster, but can't get around this person. So this very same wise person conveyed how this can be remedied. As you approach this person, you begin to regulate your speed, so as not to run up on them, you maintain your momentum into the corner and pass them as you exit the corner. It is a very simple concept, but one a lot of folks do not think about. And so in my case, after practicing this I found that there was actually more space out there than it seemed. Disclaimer: I have never seen you ride and for all I know you maybe the 2nd coming of Rossi. If this is the case or you already employ what I described. I will go sit in the corner now. One other note, in my bumps from B/N to I and I to A. I never actively asked for an eval.. I did follow what our esteemed coaches/CRs said which was to line up in the left lane near the front and go out and do my thing. In both of my bumps the coach/CR was evaluating me and I was not even aware of it. They are real sneaky like that..Pretty surprising at the end of a session and they pull up next to you coming down hot pit and motion for you to pull over and stop and tell you you are being bumped. At any rate good riding to you.
Danm Rich.......are you out of breath....or have hand cramps? I've NEVER seen you type anything that long! Must be a slow day at the office. Seriously though, very good advice.
Oh I agree with you 100%. However, I wasn't speaking of just a single rider. I was referring to riders strung out such that I did exactly as you described for one turn only to find myself having to slow for the next for a different rider or riders. This happens to all of us, I know (and maybe someone here will help me see how I am looking at this wrong). But I am now in that place (or so I believe) where I am quicker than 85% of the novice field; and I would say significantly quicker than the 85%. Yeah..., I don't think that's overstating it. But that leaves a lot of riders on the track spread out which I am only allowed to pass at a few points on the track (for autobahn south I think there are 3, maybe 4 places (depends on who is Novice captain that day). So, yes, I set up myself to pass out of a turn (where allowed) but then I run into more traffic before the next turn and now I am required to stay behind them for a quarter track or so before I can setup next pass. Again, I know "I" has to deal wth this, and I understand there are great disparities in speed in that group as well; not sure how they deal with it. But it feels like I am rarely presented with the opportunity to regularly approach a turn at a consistent speed so that I can establish conscious mental markers. Which is why I have, as others have called it, "ridden by the seat of my pants"; or which I prefer describe as "a demonstration of incredible flexibility and lightning reflexes" LOL (in the back of my mind I have the nagging suspension that my riding is in complete compliance with everyone's comments and I am simply failing to fully recognize what I do at speed and properly convey what I do recognize). I do know that there is no turn - oh wait, I just thought of one! - turn 6 at autobahn north - I know to clip the "pool table's upper left corner" if traveling at full speed. I also know I can take that turn in a couple of other ways if I am slower or have other need (like a block pass). So, maybe I have more markers in my head than I realize. I need to bring those markers more to the front of my brain rather than let them sit in my subconscious. Finally! Someone gets me! Thank you for so eloquently saying what I have failed so miserably to convey. LOL I am prideful of my ability, a year ago, to get on the track. That took courage that, at times, I wasn't sure I had (I had not ridden a motorcycle of any kind for 32 years). I also take pride that I have stuck with it and have progressed to where I feel I OWN that bike and the track (except when it rains LOL, then I am a whimp - and yes, I've heard all the arguments about how riding in the rain will make me a better rider: one day, next year most like, when I have track plastics and at least some intermediate tires). But, in the dry, I feel incredibly in control and have a smile a mile wide underneath my visor as I rip around the track. I am not ready for "I" today. I think someone could evaluate me today and bump me - but *I* am not ready for Intermediate. I want to take *at least* 4 more trackdays, and probably more like 6-8 before I consider taking that next step (this past Monday marked my 14th trackday). Even then, maybe I'll hide out in Novice for awhile longer. On the day I get bumped I'm sure I'll take pride in the fact that someone else thinks I am riding an "I" pace/quality. But so long as I am having fun and can run at my pace, I don't care what group label is applied. I realize the common case may be someone wanting to push things too quickly. I am not that guy. I am 53 years old this month, and a risk-manager (which people who know me find very ironc as I talk about the track). It's just not in my nature to be rash I promise everyone who's commented that I have read your words and taken them to heart. Even if I hold a doubt about any presented point, I will carefully consider and not forget. I am really enjoying this sport but, it can take but one mistake before joy turns to something else. I get that stuff happens, but I will be "slow and safe" if I must and never sacrifice safety for speed. MotoGP is not in my future, and I'm ok with that. Thanks for comments jcrich.
I think you are making it 1000 times more complicated than it needs to be. Don't overthink it. Just grab a coach and let them chose the group that best suits you. Or don't, and stay in novice for ever. Who really cares. It's not like intermediate is some magic place with ice cream and trophies and price money. Whatever makes you happy. Track time is track time.
Lol I know, right. It is just something that strikes a chord with me, having heard this both online on multiple sites and at the track. And to the OP you are just a whippersnapper, I am 59 and that VernLux guy? He is older than a lot of dirt.
Just remember this about errors and stupidity, You are not only surrounded, you're outnumbered! That comment wasn't necessarily directed towards the track day community, but more towards life in general.
And, to be fair and balanced, I've made my share of errors and will continue to do so. But mostly I err on the side of caution. For example, first time I went top speed down a straight and tried to slow in time for my turn I quickly received a lesson in critical mass and momentum. I made the turn, but it was eye opening. These folks that I say are making "errors", they are just learning, like I did/am. However, the "stupidity" I reference is when I see people who clearly did not listen or who perform the same mistake twice. I'm no saint, but I like to think I am very rarely, if ever, in that group. Had a guy in Novice on Monday, full track at Autobahn (for those that know it), where we were racing (I use the term generically) down the north straight by the north-side pit out. He missed the turn and went straight-on at the end of that straight rather than turn left to head onto south course. Completely understandable... the first time. I've never done that, but I get being confused. Next session, same thing happened. I imagine he'd agree the second time he shouldn't be as forgiven. I was fine but, the same person was tailing right behind him and both times you could see he was riding his ride and hers. I believe they were both ok, so hopefully good learning experience for both as, otherwise they seemed like good riders (says one Novice rider to a couple others ;-) My sin is an overabundance of caution. Normally individual rider passing is allowed only in the afternoon sessions for Novice. As a result I make a rule of taking a nap after lunch and skipping the first afternoon session because I believe it to be the most risky. Also, while I like the character of Blackhawk, I am not sure I'll ever go there again as I just don't feel it has enough run-off in some critical places. Did I mention I'm a risk manager? ;-) How do Gingerman and Grattan compare to Autobahn and Blackhawk in terms of track design and safety? I am hoping to go to both next year, but have not done so yet.
I've made my share of errors, and still do. And no denying, have also done some things that would fall under stupidity. There is no comparison between Gingerman and Grattan to Autobahn and Blackhawk. Grattan and Gingerman kick ass, that is all.
I was hesitant to move to the I group, because the of the company hosting them that I did 98% of my track days with did NOT have a system to stop anyone from going into the I group. So actual novice riders with guys belonging in Advanced running at the same time. So it was a meat grinder, saw way to many innocent riders get taken out by someone who had NO business being there. Rich stated it pretty well and using the pack as an opportunity to learn how to manage a pass following the Novice rules wasn't easy especially since it seemed most of them had liter bikes and could drive on the straights just fine, making passing a challenge with my 600. By the time I figured it out and did bump I wasn't the slowest in the I group and managed to pass several first time out. Wish you the best, and just continue to have fun.
I feel like A group is the safest group. Been in I group all year. Maybe next year I will be ready. I would recommend that you go for the bump. With the new I class it's alot better. You can find your grove and enjoy your time on track alot more.
And again, to be sure of my statement in post number 34, most of my feelings about surrounded and outnumbered by idiots involve everyday driving; back and forth to work (I do 41 1/2 miles each way every day). Tailgaters on the interstate (30, 40, 50 feet off of my rear bumper), people that put on a turn signal and automatically think they have a right to move into the lane I'm in whether there's room or not, people driving well below the posted speed limit in the passing lane, right turns on Red and pulling out right in front of you (had one of those tonight on the way home and had to bow up and almost into a slide). Honestly, between cell phone distractions, texting distractions, and generally people that just simply Do Not know how to drive.....it has become my surrounded by and outnumbered by mantra. We have all done stupid things on the track at some point in time. The wise person learns from it and becomes a safer rider. The egotistical know it all keeps making the same mistakes over and over and is truly a danger to themselves and other riders. Anyway, time to step off the soapbox and get back to our regularly scheduled topic.