You are certainly welcome to your opinion. I'm also welcome to mine. Perhaps distorted may have been the wrong word to use. His comments were generalized and broad and made a lot of assumptions. Every situation is different. One thing we can agree on is when buying dig deep and find out as much as you can. I'm unsubscribing from this thread. Merry Xmas guys.
Yes, you are allowed to your opinion, no matter how wrong it is. Just be careful not to confuse opinion with fact as you seem to have done in your disagreement. Allow me to state it more clearly for those who don't know me or know my background. After 13 years in law enforcement, I have seen plenty of shady dealings and stolen items. Not surprisingly, I did not find a single stolen item that had ANY type of documentation to accompany it and I found plenty of "owners" who were ignorant of the laws or the need to document anything. In every case, the "owner" was the one that got screwed and lost money and/or the item they thought they owned. There is nothing in my post to be "scary" and the generalizations fit most any category of item that has a taxable value to a state. Anyone doing any type of research will find that each state follows a very similar system. K3 has already done that research for us and even went so far as to publish an article on the topic. Those that want specific answers to specific questions can feel free to contact me via PM, as there are entirely too many situations to address each specifically. My apologies if the truth, and the harsh reality of the world does not jive with your opinion of how things "should be" or you simply don't agree. It remains true that a motor vehicle without title is subject to confiscation as untaxed and undocumented and if someone is selling one without title (even scrap) it is shady. I confiscated plenty of items from people who didnt agree, and frankly it was their own fault for not protecting their interests a little better. You can unsubscribe, or run and bury your head in the sand, but that does not change the truth.
When a Law Enforcement Officer tells you what the law is, arguing with him is usually a poor use of your time. When researching the article which I posted the link to earlier in this thread, I talked to several police officers and a judge to get the facts on titles. I spoke to the owners of two professional race teams to gather the info about manufacturer's certificate of origin. (Sometimes called Manufacturer's Statement of Origin as well) Bottom line is that if it ever had a VIN number, the only legal way to own it is to be in possession of a title or manufacturer's certificate of origin. The exception comes with purpose-built racers like GP bikes. Since they were never intended to be ridden on the street, some did not have titles, though others did. If a bike is sold as salvage or scrap by an insurance company, it will come with a salvage or scrap title. Sometimes, impound yards are allowed to sell abandoned vehicles without a title to pay off the storage and tow fees. In that case, the paperwork supplied by the yard at the time of sale must be sent to the state and a salvage title will be issued to the purchaser. Don't do that and you don't own it. The previous owner could claim the bike back from you as he is the owner of record! Replacement frames as sold by a manufacturer come blank. Usually, you must surrender the old frame when you pick up the new one. Sometimes the dealership will stamp the frame and sometimes they won't but in any case, you would have a receipt for the transaction which should be attached to and kept with the original title. Engines have numbers too. They may or may not match the VIN number but rest assured that the manufacturer knows which engine went with each bike. If your motor is found to be stolen, the police will confiscate the entire machine. Good luck ever getting the rest of the bike back, even if you have title to the frame. This is why some eBay sellers state that they legally broke the bike into parts and will send a photocopy of the title along with a receipt for the purchase. Bottom line is that virtually all road legal vehicles start life with titles and must always be accompanied by them. Title status may change but when it does, the state is always involved. In fact, it is not even legal for a junkyard to accept a vehicle without its title, unless that vehicle comes from the police as a tow or confiscation. That law exists so chop shops can't claim to be innocent junkyards. Owners of legitimate junkyards have gone to jail over that issue because they didn't follow the rules. Everything I stated in this post is FACT. My OPINION is that if it does not have legitimate, state-issued paperwork, walk away.
Wouldn't this topic be better suited to be thoroughly discussed in a general section thread instead of here?
Thanks for that. :thumb: I knew all the title stuff you talked about. Lora being the Finance Manager at my local Triumph/Kawi/Suzuki dealership, i have heard it all from her several times. But i have heard her (and others) say "MSO" and I new it was a "Certificate of Origin", but obviously "Certificate" is spelled with a "C" so it didn't make sense to me. I knew what somebody meant when they were talking about it, but I have never been able to expound "MSO"...until now. You learn something every day.
FWIW, our race bikes have MSO's, not titles during the time we have them. When we sell them after use, the new owner then gets the title put in their name.
Experienced, fast, well organized, receiving at least partial support from someone you aren't related to and also spending every dime you can make to go racing?
I've seen a guy get arrested and have his bike impounded at a bike night, his frame number was clean, but his engine was stolen, to be fair I don't know if he had any warrants or what... A few years ago I rented a house with a couple dudes. I had 3 street bikes, one guy had two mustangs and a daily driver, the other had about a 5 Honda civics. We got in an argument with the guy across the street about something stupid, a few days later the cops showed up to investigate a 'suspected chop shop'. Having clean titles in hand for all vehicles and bills of sale for the big ticket 'spares' made it a pain free experience...
Yup.. but that's only IF the new owner decides to register it. Most of the time the MSO is just kept along with all other paperwork. I have seen race bikes being sold with MSO and the new owner keeps that and never registers it as his intention is to not title it. I have had MSO, Rebuilt, No title (but with all other paperwork), and actual title (registered in my name - my current bike) so I have had all kinds of paperwork. My last R6 had no title and a blank frame but I had all other receipts and paperwork from the build along with pictures of the build (it was very well documented) had a notarized bill of sale. I see dirtbikes with no titles; not every off road vehicle incl. trackbikes will have a title but all should be documented. I for one prefer a title that I can at least put in my name and be free and clear with.
(In the spirit of everyone's favorite Christmas movie....) "Certificate of Destruction? What's that?" "It's a MAJOR AWARD!" :first: Ya know, you borrow a rearset from a guy ONE TIME and he dogs you for the rest of your life! :caked:
But to answer your question Dave, a Certificate of Destruction would be another version of a salvage or scrap title. It is a legal title status, which I'm guessing means that the vehicle has been deemed unrebuildable for use on public roads. It would be a legal document and would therefore prove ownership. If that's what you have, you should be hunkey dory!
If all these illegal/stolen blank, race only frames are so common, widespread, an overall threat to world peace and such a major infraction of the law....wouldn't state/fed law prohibit them from being sold on Craigslist, ebay and motorcycle forums without state/insurance/tow yard/police impound issued documentation to show proof of ownership? I'm not doubting or disputing anything that's been posted about the legalities. I've read the thread a dozen times trying to find any new helpful information that isn't already known and understood by 99.9% of us (the motorcycle community). As mentioned before, if you're caught operating any motor vehicle on a public roadway that isn't supposed to be on the road (i.e. a roadrace bike with no lights, no turn signals, no license plate, no horn, no registration, no VIN number, no insurance card....then YES, your bike will probably be confiscated/impounded until your day in court and proof of ownership is shown, or not. duh. Next question.