Collision at Barber Oct 19, 2013 in I-Group I was exiting turn one at Barber and was positioned close (3 feet) to the right-hand side of the track holding my line. The other bike, attempting to pass me on the inside, hit me side-to-side. Both bikes seemed to lock together shaking violently. I thought for sure I was going down! The two of us continued together for about a second, wherein I pulled right & rode off the track. After a short pause, we both continued. I was unhurt (except for a slightly busted fingernail), but this could have been a really serious accident. Does there need to be further restrictions on passing on the inside in I-group?
We do this regularly. A big part of a coach's job is identifying these people and moving them to a spot where they'll be better matched to their fellow riders.
Mike.Marshall, sounds close. Glad you got out of it OK. What part of six feet did the rider who jumped onto the three feet of pavement between you and the grass not understand? Another case of certain riders feeling that the rules don't apply to them. Another case where the rider needed to take responsibility for his own actions and ride within the rules. No need for a new rule. He was already in violation of the most widely quoted rule in Intermediate, The six foot passing rule.
I'd like to point out that I group isn't THAT bad. For the ones who've said they'd just as soon stay in N, I remember not long ago at all (last season) thinking the same thing. Then you finally have your breakthrough day and find so much speed that its more or less too frustrating to stay in N. I've ridden seven days in I this year and enjoyed all but about 60 seconds of it. My first day in I was at the first Barber event this year in March. After 4 or 5 sessions I was feeling comfortable and confident and decided to start making some passes. There was one in particular that I will never forget because I was certain that I was going to take another rider out along with myself. Well into the pass attempt I was convinced it was going pear shaped so I backed off in time, but only just. It was waaayyy too close and I honestly learned my lesson right then and there. It's because I was at 85% and not 100% that I didn't "make a new friend" that day, as Trevor says. The other interesting event was at Gingerman and the funny thing was that the exact same thing happened to me twice but only once did it irk me. I was stuffed in turn three by a much faster rider, who realized their mistake, raised their hand in acknowledgement/apology, went on their way, and gave me lots of space in the other sessions that day. In another session however a different rider decided to pull the exact same move, but in no way indicated that they were out of line, which in my opinion they were. I had to alter my line greatly because of their stupid-fast, close inside pass. What's my point? Attitude. Rider attitude is everything. I instantly forgot about rider one because of his "apology" but I stayed steamed for half a session because of rider two. His attitude was perhaps faulty... And so was mine! I need to accept that there are faster riders out there, and that as long as I choose to participate in this hobby, there are going to be moments where things get a little uncomfortable. HOWEVER, rider two was so much faster than me that he probably should have been in A, and he CERTAINLY could have passed me anywhere on track, so choosing to do so in a tight turn covered in tar seams and bumps was a poor choice on his part. He was at fault. This is why I believe all that is necessary is a visual campaign reinforcing safe, courteous riding. For all I know rider number two could have been following me for multiple laps and knew full well that he could make a safe, clean pass. Perhaps something as simple as a "ride sane, ride safe" sticker staring at him from atop his gas tank would have served as enough of a reminder for him to alter his behavior. My first crash on track came in my fifth day in Novice, and it was with an org that IMO spent MUCH less time emphasizing safety during their rider's meeting. However, after 7 days at three tracks with STT I am incident-free in I. This discussion is a good thing, STT does a good job, I am simply lobbying for even more of what STT already does, which is emphasize safe riding with a positive, healthy attitude.
Exactly. Rules are already in place. It comes down to rider attitude. It's not a race, it's only a track day. Be courteous and mindful of your fellow riders. The only trophy is taking your bike and self home in one piece. We all make stupid mistakes. Relax, breathe, calm down. Getting a faster lap isn't worth endangering others on the track. Leave the ego in the paddock.
For some, this would work. But, those people probably only need a talk. I had my moment at Putnam this year. K3 brought me in and made me think. He did the right thing. I calmed down and had a great weekend. For the others, it may only add fuel to the fire. It comes back to attitude and ego.
K3, I didn't mean to imply that this wasn't being done. The entire STT staff works very hard to police the groups and keep similar level riders grouped together. But in the end, it all comes down to the rider. Patience, attitude, ego are something rules just can't change. You know that old saying "Ya can't fix stupid".
Surv_I_ver Group is just that. Like Moto2. You have to survive it as a right of passage into A Group. LOL.
This is getting crazy. Let's ask this question because I see it happen a lot. What happens when an instructor wearing or not wearing a vest crashes? Shit happens, man. You need to take each and every situation separately and evaluate. Putting it all under one lump result is ignorant. Also, the last thing we need, Intermediate and the like worrying about is crashing. Again... I think we are talking poorly about the topic and this really should be a staff conversation and ultimately a director's responsibility to address and indicate a process and guideline to be followed. What I am getting from you (And I am sure this will cause someone to go tattle and say I need banned again) is that you are really not being open minded and understanding of the basics at hand within the mind of riders out there. I've seen instructors crash on their own. I've seen instructors racing each other within a group and crash. I've seen instructors rush in getting their bikes prepared and crash and cause a red flag that holds up almost an entire group's time. Do we ban those guys and gals that are the leaders of the club they assist? You cannot pull people off blanket terms. This is motorcycle riding at a performance level. Shit happens. I've seen Advanced riders tuck the front, Intermediate riders tuck the front, and novice riders tuck the front. All for totally different reasons. Under this mentality, they all sit. Some need help, some push too hard, some never listen and get in trouble. In the end, it is quality staff that needs to evaluate, understand and help or to prevent or interject on occasion. I think it is best to allow some different staff members to maybe chime in because it is looking more and more like it isn't going in the right direction. And before you go blowing up, I am saying in fact that I think what you are saying is way off base. I think that you are sounding as if you are not willing to budge, not willing to evaluate each situation. Maybe it is your tone, but people like Sherry are agreeing. I think that you have a very skewed view of the customers out there and that is unfortunate. Again, maybe it is just your tone, but the long winded responses on tires, crashes and the like are sounding more and more like you have zero compassion. The bottom line is that the best thing to do is to minimalize the amounts of riders in a group. Money needs to be second to safety. 50 at Barber is too many for I group, for example. Second, the staff needs to be watching out for the customer. There is a LOT to absorb. I've seen plenty a staff member miss things, forget things on their own bikes and they are to be the example of perfection. Customers no matter at what level have a lot to absorb and shit gets forgotten and it is NOT intentional. But the staff that lives and supposedly breathes this sport should be able to see things and offer help and suggestions. Many eyes on one thing can easily find things that could easily be missed. If a customer misses something, don't be so harsh to react... Your view of Advanced is also skewed. There are tons of riders that shouldn't be out there and not a single person helps them out. Why? mostly because the idea is that Advanced riders ride within their limits, that they are the examples of perfection. You have that WAY wrong. Plenty of examples of the same thing that is going on in Intermediate that goes on in Advanced. Bottom line is that it starts at the staff person. Again, tire examples are silly. If an Intermediate rider shows up in tech with new tires, they aren't going to be shit by the next day. If they are shit the next day, it is because a staff member missed it in tech and did not exercise their power to talk to the customer and get them sorted. It can be suspension settings and the like and they destroy a tire, but if that happens, chances are the customer will be talking to a tire guy or a staff member as the severe wear in a short time will cause questions... Riders of ALL levels crash on cold tires. I've also seen guys in Intermediate ride better in rain, cold, poor track conditions than those in Advanced. The whole idea of a blanket crash punishment will only cause more customers to go somewhere else. This is a product. Customers need to be considered. Safety is paramount and they can both go hand in hand. It is the responsibility to look at everything with the most deadly of results and see what can be done to make it as safe as possible. This should also be the mindset at tech, at the time you are talking to the customer in Novice group, in the Intermediate group, etc. At all times, it should be safety first and everything else secondary. Now, before everyone gets into a huge huff, I think STT thinks of all these things first and foremost. I just think that the staff sometimes has a different mindset as shown here in this thread. I think that the north and the south needs to be the same exact quality and product no matter what. Consistency is key. Big Macs are the same in Texas as they are in New Jersey. I think that is the biggest and hardest thing they face. Also, when you have volunteer staff members, you do not always have the best people at all times. Thus, it is important to establish concrete and clear steps to be taken. Trained staff, experienced staff, etc. Doing all of that will lead to a more uniform and standard result track day event. Accidents and crashes are a part of this sport. It happens to everyone and every level rider. Compassion is key and understanding every situation is important. Yes, as a customer it sucks that you have lost 15 minutes in your session due to a crash. But punishing customers because they crashed on their own? Yeah... that ain't smart... Now, if they were acting like a goon and riding and having been warned prior, etc? Yes. Discipline is important. If they push the boundaries and they act like idiots? Yes... Punish them with ejection or sitting out a few sessions. But that is at ANY level...
Again, what caused this close pass? Was it because the passing rider got in too hot and tried hard to avoid and maybe target locked and hit the other? Could it be that the rider was faster and should have been bumped up to Advanced but was overlooked? Could it be that the passing rider was riding like a goon and just barreled through and had no care in the world? There are millions of thoughts and reasons. Again, we can sit and say "Six Foot Rule" until we are blue in the face. The internet is not the way to solve the issue. You again are laying it all on the customer. "Take responsibility of his own actions and ride within the rules". I see this being an issue in Advanced also. Race passes are not to be done, but happen all the time. The thing is that these types of things need to be evaluated and discussed. I've watched some GREAT staff guys go to each party individually and asses what happened. With a little talking, assistance and customer service, you can find out what happened. However, if you go in with the mindset that the customer needs to be responsible and ride better, it isn't going to start out well. These staff members I have seen do this investigating and calmly discussing the incident usually always leave and everything is calm and everyone has a clear understanding as to what happened. They are stern, but polite and express amazing social skills in talking with the passing rider that hit the other one. The hit rider is going to be pretty amped up and possibly angry. The staff has two very different issues going on and possibly an issue where it could have been BOTH riders' fault. Again... We cannot place blanket ideas on everything brought up. There are ALWAYS three sides to every story here. Always. It is the job of staff to develop proper skills to address the incident and work on solutions. But if they have this mindset that the passing rider was at fault even before they talked to anyone, it is a lost situation before it is even started...
Thanks, Sherry. I only speak up on occasion for things I believe in. I am passionate about this sport and have been racing for about 20 years and coaching/instructing since 2007. I started with STT because I believed in what they taught and what they promoted. Since, I have found a new home but still like what STT is doing. I think the biggest issue is that sometimes, it gets overlooked that this is a customer based business. It is a product that people buy. So, I tend to not say things that are popular by a select few. And that's ok with me because I know who they are and who I am. But, there are more people within STT that are amazing and nothing short of spectacular than there are that I tend to disagree with. You will always have those that are not as good as the whole. Nobody on here is in that category, but I think that in any organization that is volunteer based, you will find bad eggs. Happens everywhere... The majority are amazing and as seen by several of the guys in this thread, they are passionate also. They just sometimes cannot step back and see the bigger picture. But, they always have your best interests in mind. If you ever race or visit the NC region, stop by and say hey to the #10 Ducati guy...:thumb:
I rode every STT Event at Barber this year in A. Several mitigating factors: 1. It was the last event of the year, and it was packed with a lot of non-local riders making their once-a-year trip to Barber. Which means they don't leave much skill left in the tank. 2. With the GNR the next weekend, regardless of Tevor's reminders, there were a few who decided it WAS a race prep. 3. It hadn't been that cold since MARCH. A was a little more 'competitive' than usual also (I had my first bump and didn't like it either). I watched all the red flags in I; and talking to the instructors, it was mostly caused by people not paying attention to what the coaches were saying about letting your tires warm up FIRST. An unusually cold morning at the end of a warm season. I've ridden with two other organizations; IMHO STT does the BEST job of trying to provide structure yet balancing the rules with letting people ride and improve. Only STT allows inside passing albeit with 6 ft rule. IMHO we don't need to change anything, let the staff sort it out as necessary. Yes, this last event was 'high-octane' but they can and do go out and look for stupid stuff and deal with it as necessary.
Late post but.... Sorry K3, i didn't realize all most all of my suggestions were already in place. I'm not in I Group yet so i was simply going off of what I've read, and (sorry) assumed. I know that the biggest and best suggestion is to change "the culture" or more pointedly, the PERCEIVED culture. Even in novice the few riders that have worried me were all the ones that showed up to track day thinking they are king turd of poop village. The ones that somehow equate fast lap times and how many people you've passed to skill level and "worth as a rider." Its as if they somehow think that being fast means "being accepted as a good rider" and being slow is the opposite. Honestly, for some, its an honest mistake. They show up for the first day and its on a race track, everyone is zipping around, the bikes look like race bikes (some) everyone is wearing leathers like in MotoGP.....if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..... Hell, sometimes its hard for me to not feel terrible being one of the slowest guys out there. But then i remember, it was either Jeremy or Chris said to me my second track day that being a GOOD RIDER means being safe, speed will come in time. That's the trick. Being a part of "this culture" means i feel worse about making a mistake than i do about being slow. Foster an environment of being safe THEN being fast and that's what you'll get. *which is not to say STT doesn't do that, as an org they really do, its up to the riders to foster that mentality in the paddock as well.*
Exiting Turn 1 at Barber and you sideswipe the rider ahead of you? Well, you've been able to see him and been gaining on him since the exit of the final turn, so I'll vote for possibility #3. As for possibility #2, are you suggesting that a rider who signed up in I might be too skillful for Intermediate and therefore is not responsible for his own actions when violating the group's rules? YIKES!
opcorn: I am enjoying reading the opinions here. I appreciate the discussion and the intent on making things better. Certainly, we can never make it perfect.... as rules will never cover any and every situation. But discussion on the topic is good. t
that and the fact that every weekend there are different riders in each group, ie: different skill levels. Hell, we've had weekends when the A group was riding like midpack I guys. Other weekends where all groups are really fast. Hence why some weekends go off without a redflag or crash all weekend, other weekends, seems like every group has their head up their asses and everyone is a Rossi wannabe. You can only do so much to keep everyone "safe".
Are you a staff member? In actuality, this thread was started by customers. As it has progressed, staff members, myself included, have also commented. I can appreciate that you don't appreciate my views. This is America! Three things I'll point out: 1) There are people commenting in this thread who have had interaction with me at the track and for the most part, they seem OK with how that went. 2) I don't make policy for STT. I'm just stating my own opinions within this thread. As an eleven year coach with the Org, I do have some experience with the issues being discussed. Am I to understand, Brian, that you don't feel I should be voicing my opinions? But it's OK for you to voice yours, right? 3) I get a sense that every other poster here is trying their best to make constructive suggestions about a topic that has us all concerned. You seem to be participating for the sole purpose of disagreeing specifically with ME. If you want to tell me off in person, we can PM. Let's skip the personal attacks, OK?
Tclark, that's a great point. this past summer i did sat & sunday at 'trackfest', at Gingerman. Saturday went very smooth, the only crash i remember was before lunch a guy on a brand new latest and greatest liter bike blew a turn and dropped it on the wet grass. sunday afternoon was a different story, lots of people down. I was running in novice. Seems like everyone is talking and thinking about either taking someone out, or being taken out while passing/being passed... I've never ran I group, so I don't know what if any rules or instructions there are on passing other then the 6ft rule. Maybe restricting passing in certain areas? doing some passing drills/instruction in the am sessions? creating and enforcing a 'you hit someone, you can't come back until next season' rule?