is it corrupted to define trailbraking as braking gradually from just before turn in, all the way to apex. trailing off the brakes (using less and less) as you get closer and closer to the apex? and then at the apex, you have basically transitioned completely off the brakes and are just starting to feed on the power as you exit the turn with progressively more and more power. this is how i corrupt almost every corner by default.
Your definition may not be corrupted but it is incomplete. Trail brakeing is; Starting at 100% use of traction for braking, decreaseing this while increasing the amount of traction used for cornering until it is 100% for cornering and 0% for braking, all the while attempting to maintain traction use at 100%. Yes 100% is the ideal and not often achieved, but sometimes exceeded If you think yuo're a trail braker, ask yourself. Do I often have "moments" as I finish brakeing? Do I often feel like I am now going too slow after I finish braking? Do I have trouble getting the bike to turn in the early part of a corner? Are my mid-turn and exit speeds lower than they should be? Do too many people seem to have an acceleration advantage on me out of corners? Do I admire Danny Pedrosa?
well. i thought that's the same thing i said....but....we'll go with your definition. answers to your questions: Do I often have "moments" as I finish brakeing? often? no. once in two years racing. Do I often feel like I am now going too slow after I finish braking? yes. i've never been happy with my mid-corner speed especially in long sweepers. part of my conservative riding nature. there's no place on the track where i'm satisfied with my speed. Do I have trouble getting the bike to turn in the early part of a corner? no. matter of fact it turns in better on brakes. Are my mid-turn and exit speeds lower than they should be? should be? who knows. do i want to go faster there? sure. Do too many people seem to have an acceleration advantage on me out of corners? no. just the opposite. i outdrive my peers. Do I admire Danny Pedrosa? yes. danny more than made up for his error.
My best example of trail braking ...... Gratten , Busstop a corner most everyone is familair with . I brake as much as I can while straight up and continue to bleed off brake while leaned over till the apex , then roll on the fuel . The way my bike is set up it feels best with a load on the front tire ,and a gradule feed off the brake doesnt upset the bike as much . If i do all my braking straight up then I am giving up some track /time . If I can brake while leaned over then that gives me more time to be on the gas before the corner . thats my nickle .
Wow!!! I have been a casual reader of this thread since it started. I miss a few days and it's now 11 pages long!!! I haven't read every post so don't pitch a fit if I'm covering old ground. Freddie Spencer teaches trail braking at his Pro school. According to Freddie, trail braking is not used to slow the bike down, it is to keep the bike pitched forward after hard braking so the bike turns better. A bike pitched forward has a larger front tire contact patch and the bike's geometry is more favorable as well. Don't ask me to explain the geometry thing. All I know is, when done right the bike seems to turn easier and quicker which allows earlier throttle. It seems that Rob (above) uses trail braking in this way. Trail braking is not just another way to say "late braking". You can do both!!! Once you have waited what feels like forever to use the brakes, let off of them 98% until just before the apex....then right before the apex or slightly earlier begin to open the throttle, there you've done it ...you just experienced trail braking. Freddie lets you ride on the back of his VFR and he tells you to watch his right hand. It barely moves at all. Then when you hop off the bike he takes your hand and shows you how much braking input he uses to trail brake. I'm telling you the input is about as light as a feather pushing against the lever. But, if you just did your braking to set your entry speed for a corner and you then adjust your brake pressure to this "feather" pressure, the bike doesn't go any slower, but it turns better because of the larger contact patch and better geometry. I hope I explained this properly. I've experimented with this last year and I like how it feels. Also, by the end of the year I was going faster on my newly acquired Aprilia RS250 than I would go on my 1996 GSXR 750.......WOOOOHOOOOOO!!!!
Disagree..... Trail baking has not been corrupted over the years, it has been redefined and evolved as equipment has progressed. Was the Pole Vault "corrupted" by the fiberglass pole? No. It was redefined. Did the Fosbury Flop corrupt the high-jump? No, it proved superior to the Western Roll and new records were set. Lastly.. did hanging off and dragging a knee corrupt modern roadracing? I think not. Trail braking is ANY breaking done between the turn-in and the apex or later. There is no exact trail braking equation. I trail brake on my Millie sometimes until the front squeals and starts to slide.. at this point I let off just a skosh. Nothing and I mean nothing beats a big ass two-tire slide.. dual banana darkies RULE!!! No brakes needed! :wink: Entry and Apex speeds at track days are rarely the same lap to lap. When I am alone, yes. I set my entry speed and apex speed at what I feel will work best for the specific situation. Example.. I am setting up to pass a rider on the inside AFTER the apex. I will apply about 5% to load the tire and allow the pads to warm (I use Dual Carbon) then trail this in and then aggressively brake deep while still upright, turn-in late till trail braking at maybe 5% and get the bike straight up and down ASAP so I can apply LOTS of throttle and shoot out under the rider as he/she exits wider on the traditional line. This is classic big twin Point and Shoot style. On the oher hand, if I am going to pass on the outside, I brake earlier but not nearly as hard, set my corner speed higher, sooner and take the outside line at a higher speed throughout the corner. Just prior to te apex I will steadily apply throttle while releasing the brakes, keeping in mind the traction demands of the increased corner speed and spin the tire to help turn the bike and build RPM's to exit if needed. As the rider runs wide exiting I am in front and by cleanly. Damn, forgot about the Bus stop Jig... holy shite, I trail brake insanely agressively there then let go and the bke nearly falls onto my knee. Heck, I even managed to trail brake all the way to the lake once on my 250 :shock:
totally agree. this is a place where people who brake up and down way over on the left get schoooooled. do they carry more corner speed and look cooler for the camera? yes. hey, if chicks dig it.....
If trail brakeing means any amount of brakeing after the turn in, then the definition has become so liberal as to be meaningless. To me 2% or 5% brakeing is just speed adjustment. I normally have the lever covered in all corners and use some small amount of brake for fine tuneing my speed and ajdusting chassis attitude. This pre-dates Freddie and goes back before the people I learned from forty years ago. I'll stick with the classic definition.
Ahhhh yes and by that rationale the "classic definition" of a helmet is a "pudding bowl" made of leather? This too pre-dates Freddie and goes back forty years or more as well. Of course I jest... However, your classic definition(s) on trail braking and late apexing come from a time gone by, a time when disc brakes and radial tires had not yet made it to motorcycling. A time when brakes were cable oprated drums, frames were flexible and made of tubular steel and fork tubes were skinny and flexible. Modern equipment changes/improvments such as disc brakes and friction material and radial tires have made things possible that were not previously. As these evolutions change because of this technology so do thier meanings.
sheesh, webster. didn't you define trailbraking as this?: have any of us disagreed with your definition? what part of this trailbraking discussion has led to a liberally applied meaningless pile of monkey flung poo?
Jigmore, Yes I did and Monte just disagreed with it, implying that modern brakes and tires have revised the definition. I do believe equipement progress makes it more predictable but does not redefine the concept. As for "monkey flung poo" good one. It's the internet. If there is no solid definition of terms however, discussion becomes meaningless. Like the tower of Babel or in this case the pile at the bottom of the monkey cage At any rate, we are now going in circles here. Maybe time to end the thread?
If you are still on the brakes after turning in you are "trailing" the brakes . It's not rocket science , at least the definition isn't . Whatever reason you use if for doesn't change that . I have always covered the brakes streetriding even as far back as my cruiser days , just from a safety standpoint . Trailbraking came natural for me after jumping on a sportbike since I already kept two fingers on the lever . I always have some pressure on the lever from the point of up and down hard braking untill the time rolling on the throttle naturally moves my fingers away from the lever .
guys, guys, guys!! don't forget there are a lot less experienced riders than those of you participating in this thread who are following the theories being thrown out there. I think Mike (desmo46) was just expressing an opinion on trailbraking that could be used more as food for thought for riders trying to go faster (on all levels) and take on the more advanced techniques that go with that than criticize the abilities of the contributing group. I would agree with Monte on Mike's contribution to the discussion on trailbraking IF Mike was still only riding bikes with 40 year old technology, but last time I checked, he's been riding a hot shit Ducati 999S (okay I'm biased!) for the last few years. And yes, those do come with trailbraking as an option :wink:! So not only is Mike speaking from a point of racing and understanding 30 and 40 yr. old bikes, he's seen and used all the development between now and then and is totally current with the concept on an advanced level. I expect a few references to the "old days" slipped out when someone (innocently) described trailbraking to him as if he were a first year novice, when in reality, Mike was racing when most of us were in diapers (or maybe not even born yet!), and is still riding at a pace I can only hope to see when I get to that age. I know Mike doesn't need anyone to defend him, but after reading through this whole thread it's amazing the sheer bulk of exchange that can be had among similarly-minded folks on a given subject on the internet and how much lack of understanding and perception of one another can still prevail. What kills me is that if you were all sitting around having a beer face to face, this conversation might be 4 thread pages instead of 12! This thread definitely feels to me like end of season separation anxiety from your racebikes - I just can't see this going on so long in the middle of August with championships on the line! :wink: ! Kath p.s. oh yeah, full disclosure, I like to use the feather-lite trailbraking that I learned to embrace in an abbreviated Spencer school, but when exploring lower laptimes, I've occasionally blown my "release to trailbrake" point when I've gone in noticeably faster than the last lap, followed by an "sh*T, blew it - just keep playing and fix it the next lap". Anyone with a decent amount of seat time should know the difference between the two, and anyone here who races (where the psychological demands are much greater than a trackday) and says that doesn't happen to them once in a while is full of bs!! :shock: :wink:
back to the original subject for a moment. What do you think these guys were listening to? http://media.putfile.com/Isle-of-Mann-TT-2005
I'm starting to feel old now..... I remember some of that (ok - not the leather helmets part.... sheesh)! This has been a great thread - it's going ot be a long, long winter.... So... how 'bout use of the rear brake? Anybody use a thumb brake?
in the pits/on the street/goin' moto....use the rear brake all the time. on the track....never, ever touch it.
Oh Gawd.... I need a tissue! Wait, make that a roll of paper towels, and some Windex for the screen....