:amen: Goes for all groups, we are not children, despite some of the costumes we wear. If someone addresses you with a concern about your behavior, listen! If you see something sketchy or dangerous, SAY SOMETHING! We are, by and large, all "Alpha" types at the track. The staff can't be everywhere all the time, nor should they need to be. STT does the group thing better than any other org I have encountered, but by virtue track days mix skill levels. As many have said, ride courteously and call attention to unsafe actions/riders. Now, let's hurry through winter and go flag free at Barber in March!:rawk:
They changed that this season. You have to ride Novice and have to be evaluated out of the Novice class before you can ride Intermediate. I know this because this year was my first year of track days, and Novice was all that was allowed to me until I passed my evaluation for Intermediate.
Just my 2 cents. I have ridden with other track orgs and STT is the safest, most professional and organized as well as some of the best instructors. In my personal opinion the last 2 weekends at Barbers were great. I think the number of red flags was due to the sheer number of riders that attended the event. Its like traffic going to and from work. It looks like you are having more accidents but they increase as the number of vehicles on the road increase. Count the number of accidents between 7-9am/4-6pm M-F compared to weekends and off peak hours. You will see fewer accidents during off peak hours. I rode with STT earlier in the year like June (fewer riders) and i don’t remember any red flags (some yellows and very few). I rode with another Org and there were fewer riders and there were no red flags during that event. These last 2 events were sold out events so more riders which increases the possibility for more accidents. I also wanted to note for those that stated some guys started out in I and skipped novice. When i signed up for a trackday with STT this year you don’t get any other option other than novice your first time. When i was bumped to I i was followed and evaluated for a whole session. I think the problem comes in when it’s a sold out event and track time is sold on the forum so in order to get in you have individuals who buy what they can just to get in (A guys in I and I guys in N). Even with that it still boils down to the mentality of the rider and riders policing riders. We take care of and correct our own. This past weekend i rode in both I and N so that i can work on body position. The choice was mine no ego just the goal of getting better with my body position. I hope because of a few people trying to get their last ride in for the season (at the expense of some riding that was not prudent) now we are all bombarded with rules and regs. I could say more but for now That is all.
TIRES I truly believe that this is a big part of the problem in I group. Tech inspection is not responsible for your tire pressures, the number of heat cycles your tires have been exposed to, your decision to run warmers or anything else about those black rubber doughnuts. If somebody goes down the first lap or two, their tires were cold. No argument. Pushing on tires that are cold, worn out or both is a rookie mistake. Well? Intermediates ARE rookies. The truly experienced riders are all in Advanced. Rookie has everything to do with experience and nothing to do with talent. I truly believe that if Intermediate riders spent more time talking to the tire guy, spent more money on better tires, kept track of their pressures and heat cycles and committed the funds to a tire warmer and generator setup earlier in their careers, then most of the lap one, two or three crashes would stop. As for the second half of the session, if we all sit in the pit lane for ten minutes waiting for the first red flag to be cleared up, we all go out on cold rubber. A lap later, RED FLAG! So much of our problem is rookie Intermediates making bad gambles on their tires!
RE: The above tire post. Others have mentioned attitude and I totally agree. Those with the "You can't teach me anything" attitude will not learn about or pay enough attention to their tires. This will only contribute to their penchant for crashing.
Here's what happens sometimes. Sometimes, the group just gets too packed. I honestly think the limit needs to be at 40-45 people total and that's it. It really needs to be thought about because while I understand that companies need to make as much money as they can, the end result or the "product" gets turned into a pile if it is packed and red flags are going off all the time. That being said, "I" group is the toughest and most drastic level of abilities out there. There are first timers that just came from Novice group and guys that really need to step up to "A" group. And everyone in between. It literally is the meat grinder class... The idea we took at Mid-O was to do something about that. And the results are pretty damn good and they have shown to have helped a bit in getting the riders better prepped and better at what they do. There simply just needs to be more coaching and better instruction given. Now, it is by no means saying any one club or org is or isn't doing this. I am throwing this out as a general statement. I think clubs need to focus on better coaches and a better structure. There was a club that did Putnam a couple years ago that crammed 50 plus people into the "I" group. That's stupid. Plain stupid. The results were a lot of crashes and honestly, not enough coaches. This is an example of greed where the dollar outweighed the results of the event. Having to make money can result into setting the event up to be just too dangerous or just too volatile for customers. And, it makes it VERY tough for coaches to interact and to weed through and get with riders that need the help. In the end, it needs to be thought about in terms of the total safe amount. I also think that there needs to be consideration at a club that has a self assessment structure to reduce the total even a bit more to allow movement of riders. I also think that when you have a structure of chosen riders in the Advanced group, you force some people to stay in "I" and never advance. There is no quick and easy way to solve this. My ideas that I have implemented seem to be working and we have adjusted the idea a few times to work even a little better. It evolves for sure, but I think the end result is a better "I" group experience and I think it will only get better. That's the challenge for sure. Making it better or something that each time offers a challenge to the riders. But we need to watch the totals in each group. It just has to be limited and I think if people get turned away and see that the experience is better, they are more likely to sign up earlier or want to come back because of that positive experience.
Agree 1,000%. I'd gladly spend an extra $50/day to ride Barber (heck, I'm already in $800 or more for the weekend, what's another hundred bucks?) if I knew there'd only be 35 riders on track and 6-7 coaches available for me to use.
Plenty of advanced riders crash on cold tires. It isn't a rookie only mistake. There are plenty of examples of advanced riders and even racers who crash as result from such examples. That being said, it is the responsibility of the org to remind and reinforce such ideas. The fact is that staff should be talking about these things. People during tech who are given examples or ideas tend to think about those things and possibly do them when back at their pits. We work on educating the riders even at the Novice level. The basics are usually never talked about. We structure to teach the basics, but leave out fundamental things that ALL riders should be aware of. 9 out of 10 times, it isn't cold tires that cause the crash. It is lack of ability, riding over one's head or getting into situations where they just do not have the ability or education to get through. It is a glass of water. The reserve is the space that is not yet filled. The more space the rider has, the more ability they have to get out of sticky situations. "I" riders simply have a glass 3/4 full and not a lot of space for when shit hits the fan. The clubs need to address this and work on the fundamentals of each and every track they attend. These educating times allow the riders to try and work on craft and thus reducing the amount of water in their glass and increasing their reserves. Cold tires is certainly a thing to discuss, but it isn't so severe that it is something that if prevented from happening is going to cause "I" group to be instantly red flag free. Too many lower ability riders in a packed group is the issue. Think about this. You could run 50 advanced riders at a track without issue. You can try and run 50 at the "I" level. But, if you would run half that amount and have a more open track, you would have less issues. Less issues because the space is greater for those riders with less ability. It is when they get into packs that we have a big issues. Passing, adjusting lines, perception of distance and closing speeds, etc. My opinion is that if the max is 40 riders at a set track - take Putnam as an example. Then, 30 should be the max in "I"...
I don't recall STT doing this at the Northern events but at the Southern events all the Intermediate riders are called to a quick meeting right after the big Rider's Meeting. The purpose of the I meeting is to take a quick survey of who's on tire warmers and who isn't, a reminder to set pressures just before going out on track and to ride accordingly (1-2 easy laps to get tires up to temp). I think a HUGE problem is that many N and I level riders aren't aware of the need to continually adjust pressures throughout the day. I check mine right before I gear back up for every session. I run Q2's without warmers and will probably switch to Q3s next season and continue the same approach.
My experience has been that there are always more crashes in intermediate than other groups, but only some of those are the result of a "defect" (anything from tires to attitude), and that generally people are respectful and it's safe. To me, this weekend was an anamoly in terms of the number of crashes. I didn't see a bunch of guys riding like dicks, and no one I rode near made me feel unsafe, so I'm not sure why it happened. Unless it starts happening more, it seems to me that the way STT runs things now is just fine. Anyway, just my opinion and it's not worth much!
They were doing this at the last couple ACC events. Blut it was more of a reminder to not ride over your head, take it easy the first session, ect. I remember one day they actually called a mandatory meeting after the 2nd session b/c we already had 3 reds, and some people not following directions on how to exit. Only 1/2 showed up. :wtf: some just want to do their own thing, and think they don't have to be reminded I guess. K3 said in one of our meetings after the morning sessions, also a great place to attend, (I'm paraphrasing) that advanced riders usually know their limits, Int riders are still trying to find their limit. That could be part of the growing pains we all see (guilty as well). You see someone go deeper into a corner, and you think you should be able to also. NOT going to happen. Tires, equipment, skill are all big variables in Intermediate that can suck you in if you aren't riding your own pace.
CJC, I agree. I was coaching Intermediate on Sunday. Felix, as the I Group leader, did everything in his power to keep control. Tasked with the job of coach/referee, I talked to about five riders all day. Wild, idiotic and stupid riding was in very short supply. Seriously, it wasn't a demolition derby. People were just riding off their tires. I saw it over and over. The pavement got into the 40s an night and high temps were only in the low 70s. Sunny does not always equal grip! Some guys got tired, stopped hanging off and kept going fast, running out of lean angle. Others just rode until the grip was gone and then fell over. I examined some of the crashed bikes afterward and saw tires that weren't fit to be out there. What you tech on Saturday morning may not still be trackworthy on Sunday afternoon.
I always thought it odd (convenient, but odd) that we only have to tech the bikes on day one of a two day event (except in the event of a tip over, of course). Perhaps this one extra measure might prevent some of these red flags?